   Date: Sun, 8 Jun 1997 19:15:11 +0100
   From: James <James@jpb-s.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [gworld] Request: Looking for a copy of GW 4th edition

> However, I finally broke down and bought a copy of Metamorphosis Alpha to
> Omega for Amazing Engine.  It is not so bad really, as long as you ignore
the
> half of the book that is Amazing Engine rules.  There is still good
> information on the Starship Warden, just not much space to fit it all, so
> there is a lot of room for the GM to "develop the starship as he/she sees
> best."  In other words, "we didn't have the room to include any details
about
> the starship, so you'll have to take it from here."

Well, I seem to remember that apart from character generation, AE was not
that bad a system. Bughunters was fun for one offs and Fairy, Queen and
Country had a lot
of potential. I still kick myself for not having picked up MAO when I
had a chance. But at the time, like others on this list, it seemed highly
unlikely
I'd ever get to run GW again. I never  imagined a year later I'd be running
a full
campaign.

Regards,

--- James ---

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

   Date: Sun, 8 Jun 1997 19:03:11 +0100
   From: James <James@jpb-s.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [gworld] 4th Edition General questions

> -- Depends on where you are, I'd say.  If you "believe" the rules, 
> Ascension and Bonpar are at Tech IV which means they have better than 
> flintlocks for "the common man".
> 

Nah,  of course I don't "believe" the rules. I've redefined GW for
my campaign and I'm sure most other GMs do too. In fact, at least one of
the points of this discussion is to show that the "vanilla GW" is
inconsistent and see what various people do to fix it.  But if
you want to get technical, according to Overlord of Bonparr
the flintlock is still the standard issue in the army and 
Bonparr itself described as "verging on Tech IV".

All I was saying is that these standard weapons are not
fit for their purpose. And it's not because there isn't the
know-how to build more deadly low tech weapons ( a buffalo
gun is not substantially more complex than a .38 carbine),
it's just sheer sloppiness by the game designer.

Regards,

--- James ---

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

   Date: Sun, 08 Jun 1997 12:34:08 -0500
   From: Craig Huber <cshuber@primenet.com>
Subject: Re: [gworld] the hit point thing.

TimC27@aol.com wrote:

How about this for steps toward a "more deadly" damage system: utilizes
some concepts from TimC27, Chaosium, and my own alternative D&D hit
point system.

1) Damage rolls are made by rolling damage dice *and* a d20.

2) The d20 determines general hit location: for humanoids:

 1- 6  Legs (even:right, odd:left)  Normal Damage
 7- 9  Abdomen                      Double Damage
10     Vitals/Guts                  Triple Damage
11-15  Chest                        Double Damage
16-19  Arms (even:right, odd:left)  Normal Damage
20     Head                         Triple Damage

3) Damage is also adjusted for how well the character hit: +1 for every
2 points over the value needed (AC).  (Optionally, the player can adjust
the d20 hit location roll by the bonus amount, instead.)

4) Any hit doing more than 1/5 of the creatures remaining hits causes
loss of 1 point of CN as well as the hp lost.  Even more powerful hits
cause greater CN losses:
	1/3 remaining hits = 2 CN lost
	1/2 remaining hits = 3 CN lost
BTW: The easy way to make this determination is to multiply the damage
done by 5,3, or 2, and see if it's greater than remaining hits: rather
than trying to divide remaining hits by the various numbers.

5) Damage taken once a character falls below 0 hp causes loss of 1 CN
per 2 hp taken.

6) Hit points are regained at a rate of (current) CN points per hour if
resting, half that if moving slowly.

7) CN losses are regained at 1 point per week of complete rest.  Medical
attention may increase this.

8) Hit points can go as far negative as CN loss allows: the character
dies at 0 CN, not negative hit points.  A character below 0 hit points
is either incapacitated or unconscious, depending upon a roll vs. CN.

In this case, hit points represent stamina and resilience, not health.

Example:

Potts the Over-Confident is a big lumbering Pure Strain Enforcer: Level
4, CN 17, HP 100.  He's facing Gamlyn the Vicious, a scawny AH Scout
with dagger, Heightened Dexterity, and a _mean_ disposition (CN 12, HP
32).  Potts has already taken some damage: he's at 62 hits but full CN
when the battle starts.

Gamlyn connects in round 1, rolling a 19 with bonuses against Potts AC
of 13.  Damage roll comes up 3, location 13.  Gamlyn takes the bonus
from his solid hit (19-13,divided by 2)=+3, adds it to his roll of 3 for
6, and doubles it (chest hit) for 12 points of damage.  Potts drops to
50 hp remaining, reeling from a vicious slash to the chest.

Gamlyn connects again in round 2, this time with a 14. Damage comes up
4, location 20.  Gamlyn gets no bonus for the near-miss, but triples the
4 damage (head hits are nasty!) for 12 points again.  Potts is now at 38
hp left.  Since 12 times 5 is greater than 50, Potts also loses a CN
point: 16 left.

Again in round 3, Gamlyn connects with a 17.  Damage roll is 2, location
6.  Solid Hit bonus is +2 (17-13, div 2.)  This time, Gamlyn decides to
shift his strike a little, from location 6 (right leg) to 7 (abdomen).
Damage 2, +1 for rem. hit bonus, doubled for abdomen is 6.  No CN loss,
but Potts is starting to wonder about all this.

Potts finally returns the favor with his Broadsword, getting a 21 with
bonuses against Gamlyn AC 19.  Solid Hit bonus of +1, PS bonus of +3,
Damage roll of 7, Location 4 (right leg).  Total damage is therefore 11
hits.  Since 11 times 3 is greater than 32 hits, Gamlyn loses 2 CN along
with 11 hp, and is now at 21 hits and 10 CN.

Later on, Gamlyn has Potts on the ropes at 8 hit points, 14 CN.  He
connects yet again: Solid Hit bonus of +2, Damage of 4, Location 18.
Gamlyn goes for the jugular: shifting location 18 to 20, the head.
Damage of 4, times 3 is 12 (again).  12 times 2 is greater than 8
remaining hits, so Potts loses 3 CN for the powerful blow.  Also, this
dropped him to -4, so he loses 2 more CN for the 4 points beyond 0 that
he took.  Potts is at -4 hits, 9 CN, and completely at Gamlyn's
mercy....

Another optional rule I usually use might fit here, too: a natural 20
counts as a roll of 25.

An idea, at least: my thanks to TimC27 for the wonderful insight of
using CN loss to indicate lethal vs. non-lethal damage.

Craig

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

   Date: Sun, 8 Jun 1997 18:22:17 +0100
   From: James <James@jpb-s.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [gworld] hit point thing.

> If I were to start out GM-ing any RPG, I would make sure that a dagger
could
> kill as assuredly as laser beam.
>
> Lasers just do it to the nth degree.  I have long advocated abandoning
the
> idea of 'hit points' equalling your body's ability to suffer damage.  Let
> that be your constitution.  The remaining points are 'defense points',
luck
> points, whatever.  The point is that if you don't have your guard up, a
knife
> toss can pretty much take you out.  
>

I've heard this story of how hip points should represent more that
just physical damage capacity, but I don't buy it. Quite frankly
I don't feel I can say to my players "The shot missed you, knock off 7 hit
points";
it's wildly counter-intuitive. And I really hate it when every time a
character
is shot, the wound is somehow "only a graze". Which is why I'd rather
just assume GW characters are so far removed from human norm that
they can take that type of punishment and run GW like a supers game.
It is also why I find D&D falls apart after the first few levels, but that
is a discussion for a different list.

The concept that with more experience the characters can prevent/reduce
damage should not be incorporated in the hit points. It should be 
reflected in a defensive roll. Most modern systems tend to deal 
with combat as opposed rolls of the attackers offensive skill
vs the defenders parry/dodge skill.  Its character's skills that make him
hard
to kill and which improve with time. If caught off guard and the player
cannot make his defensive roll this character is as vulnerable as 
the rest of us and, as you say, even a dagger can be deadly.

Simulating this via hit points is sheer madness and is a consequence
of the D&D's uninspired treatment of armor which makes the target
harder to hit instead of simply absorbing damage. 

> How about this....

[snip example of damage multipliers]

I don't know. I can see how it could solve a few problems but
it seems to require too much number crunching for my tastes.

Regards,

--- James ---

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

   Date: Sun, 08 Jun 1997 07:21:09 -0600
   From: Moses Wildermuth <wolf1@ecity.net>
Subject: Re: [gworld] hit point thing.

On 05-Jun-97, TimC27@aol.com wrote:
>If I were to start out GM-ing any RPG, I would make sure that a dagger c=
ould
>kill as assuredly as laser beam.

>Lasers just do it to the nth degree.  I have long advocated abandoning t=
he
>idea of 'hit points' equalling your body's ability to suffer damage.  Le=
t
>that be your constitution.  The remaining points are 'defense points', l=
uck
>points, whatever.  The point is that if you don't have your guard up, a =
knife
>toss can pretty much take you out.  =


>How about this....

>An unguarded-against hit with a dagger might take 1-4 points of damage
>against a character with a 15 CON score who has an average HP total of  =
45
>(15 X 3).  Say the injury is 3 con points, then multiply it by the avera=
ge
>dice score of 3, and suddenly you are talking about some real damage....=
 9
>points, with the added deficit of subtracting 3 from the base con score,=

>lowering resistance to poisons, radiation, etc.

>Make recovery of actual con points take 3 days for the first third, 6 da=
ys
>for the second third, and 9 days for characters whose CON scores drop th=
at
>low

>Thus, if our CON 15 character drops to 2 CON points he has a lengthy rec=
overy
>in store ([3X5=3D15 days] + [6X5=3D30 days] + [3X9=3D18 days] =3D 63 day=
s or about 2
>months.).  If he goes into minuses, give him an added bonus of 3 months =
to
>recover, barring some mutational healing or artifact.

>If the character is in an active melee, then treat the hit points as nor=
mally
>done, except when a characters hit points are lowered to a score equal t=
o or
>below his CON score, then he is taking hits on his actual CON as above.

>This is just a quick summation I am thinking up as I peck on the keyboar=
d,
>but what do you think?

>, and you have yourself a system that makes far more sense than treating=
 a
>well thrown dagger with impugnity.

> =

I haven't written in  awhile, but I have been reading.  O yes thank you a=
gain,
=B6atrick, for that random table generator, it sure does help!

On the hit point vs. damage, "I can kill you with my dagger before you ca=
n
pull your blaster from its holster" argument, I have a system that I have=

playtested. I mentioned to James once before but i'm not sure if it reach=
ed
the whole list.  It is rather involved but it is completely based on 4th
edition p[oison/radiation matrices. It goes something like this. roll to =
hit
as normal including called shots, range mods, etc. Then roll 10 sided dic=
e for
hit location, i.e. 3rd edition gamma world screen, unless called shot fin=
ds it
mark. then calculate damage including all mods. and add 10. then subtract=
 the
victims con score ( + mods.). use this number to consult the matrix to ge=
t a
result between 0 and 8. Use your imagination to fill in the results and v=
oila.
this can ultimately result in broken arms and legs, decapitations, and ye=
s the
occassional dagger in the heart, your dead. extreme result of stage 8, hi=
t
location:chest.

I really want to publish my own site and put some of my ideas out there f=
or
people to see and playtest, but the demo programs, I have found for my
commodore A3000, really byte.

Maybe one day I can buy the commercial version.


Wolfy.=

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

   Date: Sun, 08 Jun 1997 08:01:06 -0500
   From: Craig Huber <cshuber@primenet.com>
Subject: [gworld] Espers, a new concept, expansion

Some response to the feedback I've already received on the psionics
stuff I posted:

My concept here is to give it an air of mystery and ancient power: Tech
I-III, even IV societies would see a psionicist as a mystic or
sorceror.  The character would need to search out rumored "masters" and
ancient "grimoires" (pre/post-catalysm books on psionic discipline).

Now, why do I inject this mystical element?  Because it adds to the aura
that I want to bring to Gamma Terra: the aura of lost arts and ancient
powers, of secrets to be rediscovered and empires to be forged.  A world
where every county of ancient Meriga is now a self-contained new realm
in and of itself, and the world beyond the home forest is a place of
mystery and adventure.

However, just because Psionics might have that feel to the citizens of
Gamma Terra, that doesn't mean we should forget the "pseudo-science"
behind it.  It is _Science_ Fantasy after all: the structure should be
at least scientifically plausible, if not accurate.  A Tech V or VI
society in GW could very easily be based totally on Psionic development,
rather than more physical technologies: "Psi-tech" rather than
"Cyber-tech".  (There was an episode of Sliders this past year along
those lines: a Mad Max meets the Age of Aquarius type of world.)

I separated Psionics into Disciplines and Psions (Reginald: what's the
name you were thinking of?) for a couple of reasons.

1) I wanted a framework which could be worked to fit both 3rd and 4th
Editions, since we're speaking to a wide audience here.  (Heck, if I got
enough players to form a campaign, I'd _gut_ 3rd Ed. for details and go
back to *Second* Edition for mechanics.)
2) By creating Disciplines, players get to select well-defined areas of
talent, and then can be creative in designing the powers (Psions) they
generate from those areas.  I tried to give some examples: using
Teleportation for clairvoyance, two different methods of creating
"Strength".

Why keep Psionics less powerful than Mutations?  Well, I guess I just
feel it fits the genre better that way.  If psionics outstrip mutations,
you suddenly have 4 Espers in the group of 6, and you're playing Psi
World, not Gamma World.  I'm not saying a talented Esper shouldn't be a
force to be reckoned with: just saying that the innate flexibility of
psionics should come with a price, less power.

As for use of Psionics and costs to use, try these concepts on for
size.  Concepts were borrowed from the sci-fi classic "Scanners", as
well as FASA's Psi World and ICE's SpaceMaster 1st Ed.

Each Psion is developed as a skill, after they are learned/created. 
Each Rank represents an additional unit of focus and force which can be
brought to bear.

Multiple Psions can be utilized simultaneously each round, each up to
the Rank to which they have been learned.  The Total Ranks utilized in a
round should not exceed the character's MS score: doing so is called
Burning Psions, which has deleterious effects outlined below.

Psion use can be quite a strain on the individual.  A single psion can
be used to 1/5 of it's current Rank without any side effects on the
Esper.  If this "Fatigue Free" level is exceeded, the Esper takes 1 hit
point per round the Psion is in use (certain Psions might have higher or
lower "Fatigue Free" percentages.)

The use of more than 1 Psion is strenuous, regardless of it's rank and
effect.  Each Psion used in a round, after the first, also causes 1 hit
point of "strain" damage.

Burning Psions has far more serious effects.  Each RANK of Psion
utilized beyond the character's MS in a single round causes 1 hit point
of damage to the Esper.  In addition, each multiple of MS which is
exceeded causes a temporary loss of MS (-1 per round, per multiple),
which is recovered at a rate of 1 point per day of rest.  Burning Psions
takes the character from minor muscle spasms and a heavy sweat into the
realm of bleeding from eyes/ears, swollen blood vessels, labored
breathing, etc.

===

Example: Finister the Esper has an MS of 15, Mind Wall Rank 12,
Confusion Rank 6, and Invisibility Rank 9, all based on the Discipline
of Telepathy (only one he knows...)  He normally runs around maintaining
2 active Ranks of Mind Wall at all times.  Coming upon a trio of
aggressive-looking Badders, he first tries throwing up all 9 Ranks of
Invisibility to get by unnoticed: 3 Ranks against each of the three
Badders.  He succeeds against two of the three, but the third
successfully resists the telepathic attack and spots Finister.  Finister
takes 3 hp for utilizing three additional Psions in a single round, and
the battle begins in earnest.

Second round, Finister ups his Mind Wall to Rank 12, drops the
Invisibility on the third Badder and transfers the Ranks to the other
two, and launches a Rank 6 Confusion attack against him instead.  The
two Badders actively fighting the Telepathic Invisibility fail their
attempts to break free, have their Empathy blocked by the full strength
Mind Wall, and begin to wonder at their comrade's sanity.  The third
falls to the Confusion attack, and begins wandering in circles attacking
the local shrubbery.

Finister has just Burned an extra 12 Ranks of Psions, however.
(12+5+4+6 = 27 Total Ranks.)  He takes 12 hp from Burning, 1 hp for
exceeding the Fatigue Free rating in his first Psion of the round, and 3
hp for using three other Psions in the same round: total of 16 hp
damage.  He also is operating at -1 MS for the remainder of the day. So,
wiping the blood from his nostrils and ignoring the cramps in his legs,
he quickly hobbles past the three Badders and into the deep brush to
heal.

===

I was thinking that awakening Disciplines and learning Psions should be
a chancy thing based on IN, not MS, by the by.  It gives Pure Strains
another minor, yet tangible, survival advantage.

Comments?  I have been working on a comprehensive write-up of all this
in my free time (1.5 hours in the past week: oh, well)  Is anybody
interested?  Ideas?

Later!

Craig
